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  1. #1
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    Question Advice Sought - Cartridges Jamming in Roughly Same Place on Same Print

    Good afternoon all,

    First up, I've been a lurker for a few months here and found much valuable information, so my thanks for everything this community has posted so far; it really is an amazing resource.

    I have embarked on an ambitious program to print a Blood Bowl Arena and have been making pretty good progress, but recently I have hit a snag and while I know what's the problem I don't understand the cause. I am printing the last of 8 medium sized tiles, and when the printer nears the end of the print the cartridge is jamming (filament rocks back and forth, makes a ticking sound) which I believe indicates the filament has stripped inside the drive gears. So that's why the final layers are not printing, what I don't get is why it's happened with two different cartridges yet a test piece with the second cartridge (printed between the two failed tiles) worked fine.

    Here is a brief summary of what I've done:

    1. Print fails
    2. Attempt purge jets, notice not extruding
    3. Change cartridge as I have spares, reckon I'd fix the bung one later
    4. Auto-level and gap
    5. Manually adjust the gap to -3.15mm, which is very close to the -3.14mm I had printed the previous tiles on
    6. Tape and glue the print plate
    7. Warm the plate and room
    8. Print a test piece (success)
    9. Re-tape and glue the print plate
    10. Warm the plate and room
    11. Print the medium tile (fail due to cartridge not extruding)
    12. Attempt purge jets, notice not extruding
    13. Swear loudly
    14. Post on forums


    I am using the same stick of glue and both cartridges are NIB ABS cartridges from 3D Systems (I got lucky and picked up 6 of them for 1/2 price in a recent sale). Now I am using a different brand of tape from the previous tiles, but both are cloth tape and appear to be very similar in thickness; the new one does look slightly thicker, but it's really close and I am using a 0.01mm larger cap with it by chance. When looking under the print head while printing the first few layers there does not appear to be an issue with gap between the head and tape, as the layer is going down smoothly.

    I am getting slight curling of the bottom corners but it's within a level I am willing to accept (especially as it's on the bottom and not visible). When comparing the bottom of the three tiles, there is not much different between them. Now the chances of two cartridges failing in the same way at roughly the same place in the print is astronomically low, so I am betting I am doing something causing this.

    Can anyone offer any insight as to what might be causing my issue?

    Cru


  2. #2
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    Good morning Tommy, thank you for the swift response.

    After I Googled what the hell retractions were ( xD) it would seem they are not something I could (or would want to fix). So I'm getting the impression off your response that I got unlucky with the last two cartridges and lucky with the two before them. I actually have wider bowden tubes and the drill guide for the hot end all ready to go, I just haven't made installed it all yet. Didn't think I'd need to until I ran out of filament and needed to swap to 3rd party stuff :/

    I guess I should mod a hot end this weekend then. Luckily I am house and pet sitting for parents while they tour Europe, so I have access to my father's large tool collection. That and I've pre bought all the bits and fittings.

  3. #3
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    Welcome to the forum CruciasNZ.

    I did have this problem once. When I was able to reproduce it, I was convinced. At the time I was on a bend to minimize the clearance to the filament in the bowden tube. Then I printed a Minion model that failed repeatedly at the very same spot, or at least, within a few layers. Same thing; print print print click click ..click.

    The setting was a diamond fill with minimal border 'purging'. A lot of retractions with very little being extruded. The filament ran back and forth in the driver multiple times. This was using 3DS PLA.

    When I got fed up with this, and knowing I've had zero issues with this filament and setup, I went to investigate. Turns out that all that retracting flattens filament. Okay, so what you ask. Flat filament is wider. Wide enough in fact that it could have trouble being pushed in the tube. Add to that friction (yes, PTFE and PLA or ABS can demonstrate significant friction!) and the thermal expansion properties of plastic and you have a perfect 'finger puzzle' happening in you bowden tube. Even if you go back and test it, you will find less restriction, but you will note the restriction none the less.

    I have purchased meter upon meter of bunk bowden tube. Each being on the small side. I now test every tube, not for the common print but for that 1 in a 1,000 that forces excessive retractions that could set up this condition. Best way to know if your tube passes is to push a bicycle spoke through it. Most common bicycle spokes are 2mm diameter. I want that to be the minimum inside diameter of my bowden tubes.

    Also note that I've eliminated wear of the bowden tube by not using quick connect fittings. This has freed up the efforts of sourcing compliant bowden material. Also don't fall for Capricon's hype. They fail just as much when their smaller ID tube actually met my spec and the larger ID failed. I'm still using the test piece Bolsoncerado sent for grooving.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Aha... and here I was thinking you were already using a modified hub solution. In that case yes, you hit the average perfectly. I find that 50% of stock cartridges don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever working reliably. And I was one that thought at one time, all cartridges could be rehabilitated. The problem comes in when they added the caterpillar tracks to the Teflon tube. They 'oversquished' the Teflon and created a restriction. Add that to the restriction at the two barrel nuts and you have a very unreliable system.

    Fortunately there are several functional hub alternatives. My favorite of course is the Universal Hub as the only purchased part is the bowden tube itself. You will find the parts on Thingiverse if you search "B2B".

  4. #4
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    Where the hell did my response go?! Man that's weird. At least you got to read it.

    I've been trying to follow the various universal hub developments but it has been a bit overwhelming as the information seems to be scattered throughout a thread and not summarized anywhere so plebs like me can rock through it. Just another thing in my to do list.

    What I thought I'd do was modify the bit where the tube connects to the cartridge and also the hotend to use my new bowden tube, and then just swap that between the cartridges I have. Once the cartridges are nearly done I'll look at a full replacement to make using third party filament easier.

  5. #5
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    you deleted it...

    but it still exists...

    Good morning Tommy, thank you for the swift response.

    After I Googled what the hell retractions were ( xD) it would seem they are not something I could (or would want to fix). So I'm getting the impression off your response that I got unlucky with the last two cartridges and lucky with the two before them. I actually have wider bowden tubes and the drill guide for the hot end all ready to go, I just haven't made installed it all yet. Didn't think I'd need to until I ran out of filament and needed to swap to 3rd party stuff :/

    I guess I should mod a hot end this weekend then. Luckily I am house and pet sitting for parents while they tour Europe, so I have access to my father's large tool collection. That and I've pre bought all the bits and fittings.


    - - - - - - - - - -

    I don't know that any one hub has any advantages over the rest. They all do the same thing... deliver filament

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyDee View Post
    you deleted it...

    but it still exists...

    Good morning Tommy, thank you for the swift response.

    After I Googled what the hell retractions were ( xD) it would seem they are not something I could (or would want to fix). So I'm getting the impression off your response that I got unlucky with the last two cartridges and lucky with the two before them. I actually have wider bowden tubes and the drill guide for the hot end all ready to go, I just haven't made installed it all yet. Didn't think I'd need to until I ran out of filament and needed to swap to 3rd party stuff :/

    I guess I should mod a hot end this weekend then. Luckily I am house and pet sitting for parents while they tour Europe, so I have access to my father's large tool collection. That and I've pre bought all the bits and fittings.


    - - - - - - - - - -

    I don't know that any one hub has any advantages over the rest. They all do the same thing... deliver filament
    ?!

    No idea how I managed that, all I did was edit it off a cellphone because I noticed I'd made a mistake. I will look into the Hubs with more interest now; while I could roll the dice and hope my last 2 cartridges work fine I don't want to waste the money xD

    Thanks for your time Tommy

  7. #7
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    I can't do internet on phones.

    The good news is that although these cartridges are considered 'disposable', the components actually hold up very well. I use nearly all of the original parts to rebuild a cartridge and add a few small printed pieces.

    Just watch out for aggressive filaments with additives like carbon fiber or metal. I don't think our nozzles will stand up to those for long. To date, I have yet to wear out a nozzle or filament driver gear.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    ...and I reinstated your original post for you

  8. Thanks CruciasNZ thanked for this post
  9. #8
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    And it's not too difficult to modify the cartridge. I am usually afraid of trying such things, but it worked just fine for me. I have not printed the parts, but TD prints great versions of them. Maybe TD can print and ship you some for a reasonable cost? (Not trying to make you any extra work or anything TD.)

    The three parts you need:

    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3806898
    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3800656
    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3804561

    Did I miss any parts?

  10. #9
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    and a groove cutter of sorts.

    I'm gonna guess the NZ appended to Crucias stands for New Zealand... close?

  11. #10
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    Yeah NZ is for New Zealand.

    What I have got already is a bunch of push fittings, 1m of wider bowden tube, and the drill thing from here http://www.print3dforum.com/showthre...be-3-cartridge

    I also have a PLA cartridge where we drilled a window in the lower half so 3rd party PLA can feed through the driver gears and up the stock tubing. As that cartridge worked fine that was my intermediate solution, but the filament jammed and then the gears stripped the filament, so I just bought a bunch of cartridges to keep going (didn't know they were ABS till they arrived, wasn't listed on the sale window).

    I had hoped to finish as much of the pitch as I could this month, as I am pet sitting for parents and working remotely over 4g; that lets me constantly nurse the printer and abort failed prints early thereby reducing cost. However, if the B2B project will fix my unreliability issue then I may as well swap on over.

    Do you guys have any recommendations for replacement drive unit mounts? Sort of like this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2735871/comments

 

 

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