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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTee View Post
    BTW - That is a beautiful print of Frosted Mini-Wheats (R)!! How did you make it so realistic???
    ;o)
    John, it actually is frosted mini-wheats. If you try to print amolen with stock 3DS PLA settings it won't fuse well, and will look very stringy and have a lot of gaps.
    Tim

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  3. #52
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    (I was kidding!)

    But I appreciate the info about amolen - helpful to know that. Just looked at their web site - lots of interesting looking filaments.

    Have you tried any other than their PLA?

    Have you worked out settings that do work with it?

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTee View Post
    (I was kidding!)

    But I appreciate the info about amolen - helpful to know that. Just looked at their web site - lots of interesting looking filaments.

    Have you tried any other than their PLA?

    Have you worked out settings that do work with it?
    Hey John, sorry if I took your response too literally. Printrbot filament is the other one I've printed with and have fine tuning parameters.
    Tim

  5. #54
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    What change are you finding advantageous for PrintRBot filament? PLA?

  6. #55
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    In many cases stock PLA through CubePrint outer layer can be peeled from the second layer, so even the baseline needs a little tuning. I don't think this is an artifact of my nozzles, I think you'll observe something similar (please double check me here).

    Yes, PrintrBot PLA and 3DS PLA are similar, but on the basis that even our baseline needs a little more fusing, I make the necessary adjustments. Simplify 3D has outer perimeter and inner perimeter (first ring, second ring) that are separately adjustable, so inner perimeter and all solid internal layers are adjusted with slightly faster extruder feedrates.

    Tim

  7. #56
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    Agreed. Have you found the default minimum separation between these two traces that the 3DS slicer is using?

    I settled for 0.45mm/trace for lack of better testing methods. If I go much less than this, the slicer reduces the number of traces from pairs to single. Say a wall of 1.8mm thick yields 4 traces (2 pair), and a wall of 1.7mm thick yields 2 -very loose- traces (2 single).

    From the design side, this is good to know. I am certain there are parameters built into Simplify3D. In my case, for the moment, I need to come at it from the design side. And I know that designing to the tool is not good design practice... but it is a useful tool for 3D printing on proprietary systems.

  8. #57
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    3DS uses 0.5mm which is calculated with a little trig from BFB code directly from CubePrint. I think you inadvertently helped fusing by using smaller spacing. My S3d profiles are set to match Cubeprint(extrusion width is set to 0.5mm) because my goal was to be able to later match extruder feedrates regardless of slicer once optimum settings for a material are obtained.
    Tim

  9. #58
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    It's the minimum I could make it do.
    A 0.9mm thick wall in the STL generates the minimum thickness that I could detect.
    A 0.5mm wall in the STL comes out to the same thickness.
    A 1.0mm wall in the STL has a notable gap between traces. (hence, I avoid 1mm walls in design.)
    Regardless, long straight (flat) runs still separate.

    Good input to check a .cube3 file on trace separation. That I can do with linear values on simple prints.

    Thanks for what 3DS considers the extrusion width. That too can be confirmed at the same time.

  10. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tprothma View Post
    3DS uses 0.5mm which is calculated with a little trig from BFB code directly from CubePrint. I think you inadvertently helped fusing by using smaller spacing. My S3d profiles are set to match Cubeprint(extrusion width is set to 0.5mm) because my goal was to be able to later match extruder feedrates regardless of slicer once optimum settings for a material are obtained.
    Tim
    @Tim
    Yep. For S****&Grins. I used your S3D settings changing only the Gap. Note, I use a "LokBuild" on my build plate.
    I set the Gap to .23 as suggested by Lokbuild as a "START". I printed a one wall square, 20x20mm, its line width was .50mm. I then changed the gap to .03.
    Using the same BFB file the width was .52mm.

    Using your profile with 0.5mm worked very well with a gap of 0.03mm because a width of .52mm allowed an overlap.
    I printed the "Test Print" included in the firmware as a control subject, stopping the print after the first layer. The results were striking different.
    The .23 gap had visible "air" gaps between the lines. Thumbs up to Lokbuild that print stuck.
    The .03 gap produced closed lines and almost in-perceptible lines.
    I used the proverbial 20x20x20mm cube and set the wall, outside-in. Measurements were right on the money. Material used was PLA.
    Gotta use your settings for PETG next.

    Nice job Tim!

    G70

  11. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyDee View Post
    It's the minimum I could make it do.
    A 0.9mm thick wall in the STL generates the minimum thickness that I could detect.
    A 0.5mm wall in the STL comes out to the same thickness.
    A 1.0mm wall in the STL has a notable gap between traces. (hence, I avoid 1mm walls in design.)
    Regardless, long straight (flat) runs still separate.

    Good input to check a .cube3 file on trace separation. That I can do with linear values on simple prints.

    Thanks for what 3DS considers the extrusion width. That too can be confirmed at the same time.
    First finding... a 10mm square is defined with a 9.58 unit move. I clarify "unit" as I am not sure if this is calibrated to 1 unit = 1 mm. I can confirm this later.

    This is only the external trace. With this I should be able to zero in on minimal wall and the actual offsets for 1, 2, and 5 trace walls that the slicer determines. Of course, I am only analyzing what the Cube 3 app does (and 3DB eventually).

    Thanks again, Tim. This is what I was looking for for a long time.

    Values: 10mmx10mmx0.25mm w/ internal offset of 0.9mm
    <snip>M103
    G1 X-1.790 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F8000.0
    M108 S29.0
    M101
    G1 X-1.790 Y3.040 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X7.790 Y3.040 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X7.790 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X-1.765 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    M103
    M228 P0 S1<snip>

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Finding 2:
    Changing the wall thickness to 1mm did not change the outside trace...
    The first 4 moves are identical.

    <snip>M103
    G1 X-1.790 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F8000.0
    M108 S29.0
    M101
    G1 X-1.790 Y3.040 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X7.790 Y3.040 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X7.790 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X-1.765 Y-6.540 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    M103<snip>

    Finding 3:
    Made the square 6" with a 1mm wall...
    <snip>M103
    G1 X-72.990 Y-77.740 Z0.2500 F8000.0
    M108 S29.0
    M101
    G1 X-72.990 Y74.240 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X78.990 Y74.240 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X78.990 Y-77.740 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    G1 X-72.965 Y-77.740 Z0.2500 F1200.0
    M103<snip>

    Per the numbers...
    trace (-)72.990 + 78.990 = 151.98
    target 6" = 152.4mm - 151.98 =0.42 (assuming 1:1 units) width allowance to the nominal outside dimension

    Finding 2 results:
    trace (-)1.790 + 7.790 = 9.58
    target 10mm - 9.58 units assumed millimeters = 0.42mm offset.

    Again, in the past I've assumed 0.45mm to be the minimal... it appears I can work as close at 0.42. I'll see if the slicer makes a distinction using 0.42 or if it requires 0.43.

    Now that I have a path forward, there are a lot of numbers I can crunch this way. I will also test if this solves the bonding issue between traces by trying a 0.85 and 0.84 wall thickness. I also need to see how the slicer treats walls thinner than this.

    Now I can also confirm the trace distance between solid surface infill. That will need to account for the 45 degree angle, though. No problem

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Interesting note though... by default, the z-value for 200um prints is always 0.25 for the first layer.
    This has nothing to do with gapping the printer for most of us but the value is considered when printing.
    So for .cube3 files, messing with this z-value in the file forces you to also consider the current printer's gap.
    This might be a way to reduce the gap without actually changing the printer when you need a small change in the print.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Finding 4:
    Z-value between 200um and 70um prints are identical.

    Both the 200 and the 70um layer thickness prints have an initial starting value of Z0.2500.
    Subsequent layers iterate by the layer thickness.

    This means that changing the z-value for the 1st layer also means iterating all the z-values in the print file to preserve layer thickness.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Fun facts... In finding 3 you will see that the printer's "dead center", which a 6" square must be within, is offset.
    One would expect a value of 75.99 and -75.99 that makes the X offset 3mm to the right and Y offset is 1.75 to the back.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    Finding 5:
    Since there is no difference between the numbers when the part is scaled up from 10mm to 152.4mm, then it is safe to assume that the values in the .cube3 print files are 1:1, as in 1 BFB units = 1 millimeters for X and Y.

    Assuming this is also true for Z, and there is no reason at this time not to do so, that leaves another interesting value...
    "200um layer thickness" in the cube3 file is 0.1925 and every layer iterates by this amount. So 200um is actually a rounded value.
    The 70um prints on the other hand has exactly 0.070 for a layer thickness. And the iteration per layer are also the same value.

    Is the layer thickness really 192.5 microns rather than the advertised 200? I know, I'm splitting hairs, but understanding these relations do help with development.
    You can determine the number of layers by simply knowing the height; INT((Part height-0.2500)/.1925) = layers (+1 test for remainders?).

    Again, it is possible that the FW puts in a correction value for Z but I doubt it. Just leaving the possibility open as both scenarios present themselves.
    Last edited by TommyDee; 04-10-2018 at 07:55 PM.

 

 

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